ZFM LEADERS INTERVIEWED In a video smuggled out of Zimbabwe, Charles Black Mamba and Nthuthko Fezela – Commander and Deputy Commander of the Zimbabwe Freedom Movement – are clandestinely interviewed by a fellow member of the ZFM.
During the 1970s War of Liberation, Charles Black Mamba fought with the ZANLA forces and Nthuthko Fezela served with ZIPRA.
The following is a full transcript of the video interview:
INTERVIEWER: Good Evening, this film is coming to you from Zimbabwe, in a suburb on the outskirts of Harare. It’s October 15th 2003. Because of the lack of freedom of press, the Zimbabwe Freedom Movement has requested that we film this interview, to be issued concurrent with their communiqué, which you already have with you. On the left of the screen, we have the National Commander of the Zimbabwe Freedom Movement, who goes by the name of Charles Black Mamba. To the right of the screen we have the Deputy Commander, who goes by the name Nthuthko Fezela.
INT: The first question would be that you mentioned there was no-one else to blame for the broad range of problems that affect Zimbabwe than Mugabe, his party’s ministers and the top command structures of various arms of the security forces. Why do you state this – could you enlarge please?
Nthuthko Fezela: The reality is that he promised us these health facilities, educational policies, as well as the land question and those are the real reasons why we joined the struggle and that’s what we fought for in the Chimurenga struggle (the 1970s War of Liberation) – for the major things he was supposed to address. But 23 years later still we have still got the same problems, so he is the centre of all our problems in this country.
INT: Commander, why do you talk about freedom, did freedom not come in 1980?
Charles Black Mamba: Yes, the freedom came, and the promises, and now what you are seeing is different, because we are not expecting this. We are expecting democracy, freedom, and now after 20 years we have to discover some problems with him. People are not free in whatever they’re doing. They are not free to say whatever they want. They are not free to complain, of which we didn’t fight for that. We fought for the democracy and that freedom. That’s why we are talking about a different freedom now.
NF: We are in the government forces, but we actually know that the constitution of Zimbabwe is the one to be blamed because it favours him applying all these tricks he is doing these days. Like on the issue of one man one vote, on the issue of all the past elections which have been done as from 1980 till today, it wasn’t in the form of one man one vote. It was made sure that each and every election which was done, it was going to be in his favour. And as members of the forces we know it, because we were also used to participate in his favour, especially in the polling booth, in the polling station, in the election process, because the election process as a whole favours Mugabe. At the same time there are no human rights, whatever moves which people were supposed to push for.
INT: Commander, when Mugabe was campaigning in the past presidential elections, one of the thrusts of his campaign hinged around land, land for the people, we will never be a colony again.
CBM: I can say why he introduced this. It was because he wanted to win the election and that was the way he could take advantage of winning the election. I can say that he did not only use the war veterans, he also used the security agents and police so that he gained the votes. Because besides that, totally he was going to lose. He knew that if people get intimidated by members of the forces, then already he will win the elections. It was not his wholehearted wish to give the land to the people, it was just a way of winning the election.
NF: What I actually know is the land question, the British, yes they are colonisers, but soon after the Lancaster agreement, they have played their part. Everybody was willing to divide the land and everybody had the status to buy land. So the land question, it is only a political gimmick which he actually knew was the reason for people, for us to fight for liberation, was the land question.
NF: It was easy for us, since we are in the forces, to actually do the same as what happens to Samora Machel in Mozambique (assassination) after he had fought so hard to liberate Mozambique, and straight from there the people of Mozambique believed he was a good leader who brought freedom to the country. But they believed he was a bad leader to lead the country after freedom. And the same thing which happened to Samora Machel (assassination) is easy to happen to Mugabe. But for the people of Zimbabwe, that’s not our aim. We are not interested in that. We want to teach him, or to tell him, the ways of democracy, and how to take the principles of democracy, the democratic way. So I understand our neighbouring leaders, our concern is they are just looking at us, they are not even contributing. Zimbabwe was the bread basket, today it is like a desert, everybody is now suffering, there is highest inflation in this country.
INT: Commander, let me just get this straight. The Deputy Commander, has he said that you’ve chosen not to eliminate Robert Mugabe. Do you support that? Have I understood that correctly? Or is it that you were not able to eliminate him?
CBM: Yes, we can do it, any day, any time, if we wanted. But the thing is we just want him alive. Because if we wanted to do this, he is always going out, he is always having trips from Zimbabwe to different countries. Like this time he went, he used Air Morocco. If we wanted to just kill him, we could have done it. But now our aim is not to kill him, but to get him alive, so at the end of the day he receives the truth.
INT: Do you have the equipment to deal with this sort of problem?
CBM: Yes we’ve got the equipment, it’s there. We’ve got that. It is enough for whatever we want to do.
INT: You mentioned that the United Nations and the international community must not see your action as a coup d’etat. In Africa as you know, very often the military has intervened, taken over the government, and in all fairness, the results usually from military rule have not been very satisfactory, on this continent and for that matter on many other continents. What would you have to say Deputy Commander, to try and convince those who are following the release of your communiqué, that your intentions are honourable and that you in fact do not intend to follow in the footsteps of many of these other military coups?
NF: Because we’ve actually sat down and learned from what other countries have been doing, especially the countries which have been taking power from these coups. We don’t have any intention of ruling this country but our major intention is to stand for the people so the people can have better leaders who actually have the people at heart. So we don’t have any intention of taking the country and having our own leader, no. All you have to do is put pressure on Mugabe and his colleagues and his friends so that he may understand the calls of the people who are suffering.
INT: Deputy Commander, what political party does the Zimbabwe Freedom Movement represent?
NF: We actually represent no political party, not even one. But whatever comes next, all we want to see is that there is fairness in running the country, especially when it comes to elections. Are they done fairly? With any party who is running for presidency or the ruling of this country, all we are here for is to see whether democracy is prevailing in our country, despite coming from which party. So it’s a thing which I feel we are not concerned about who is coming next, but we are concerned about the systems of the electorate and the whole process of our liberation that follows this time.
INT: Commander, you are an ex-combatant, I understand you fought with the ZANLA forces (Mugabe’s liberation army during the 1970s struggle against Ian Smith’s white minority government) – that’s correct?
CBM: Yes.
INT: We noticed at the beginning of this that the flag that is hanging behind you has had the red star deleted, or painted out. What is the significance of that?
NF: For the past, the Zanu PF, Mugabe’s flag was having the star which actually reminds us, you know, of the Marxists, so we believe that Marxism brought in freedom. Since we are in a global world now, which we feel that we should enjoy the future of this country, as we are living in global village with all nations in the universe. We would like to put it that the idea of having the star, for the Marxist, is now over. We are now living in a – it’s another phase of leadership we’re looking to.
INT: Mugabe has often mentioned issues such as the destruction of African culture by Western ideals, Western styles of living. How do you feel about this?
NF: Our culture is good. But a culture without principles, or which is doctored to have principles of oppression in it, I don’t think it is an enjoyable culture. But we believe that our culture is okay, that is if there is democracy in it, and there is equitable distribution of everything. But I feel that he is using our culture as the centre of us hating or creating racism, tribalism and nepotism basing on our culture.
NF: Recently we have been having local government elections and the thing is, on the local government elections, since they were won by the MDC, the opposition. The Zanu PF had a quick meeting to see where they had went wrong. Actually they discovered that some of the police force, the military, as well as the government members themselves are voting for the opposition because they also are tired of the systems of Zanu PF. So they had a very quick meeting and tried to address where, exactly, they lost their bet. It was clear that the people are tired and have suffered enough with the ruling party so they demand for a change – even those who are in the military – we are ready for a change.
NF: We are not putting a threat on Mugabe or giving a final deadline that on this day, on this day, we are going to do this if you fail to do this. But, you know, our threat only is the people have trusted us and we know we have got good back up behind us, and whatever the people who are actually triggering us to do, that is what we will do. Since we want Mugabe to hear this message so clearly that he should actually change his ways or step down because people has suffered enough for him. But I think the earlier he does that the better. Because of the cry of the people, we cannot just keep quiet while the people are suffering.
On the issue of ammunition and the lack and the like. I think on that we are very much home and dry because the whole ammunition we have here in Zimbabwe is for us to free ourselves when it comes to the cause of the people. So I don’t think we have a problem with ammunition. People are all ready. We’ve got it.
INT: So basically I think your message is the next move is up to Mugabe. Is that correct?
NF: Certainly. He is the one who is going. His moves are the ones who are going to judge our pace.
CBM: It is up to him.